Season 1: Episode 7 - Networks, leadership, and MSK innovation: A community health round-up

In this episode of the podcast, released in recognition of Armed Forces Day, Group Chief Information Officer Sarah Buchan sits down with Dom, Sharon, and Thomas - members of staff networks from NCH&C and CCS. Together, they discuss the launch of the new Armed Forces Aware network and the vital role staff networks play in fostering inclusion, building community, and supporting colleagues with shared experiences.

Later in the episode, Vicky speaks with Dr. Caroline Kavanagh, Group Medical Director, during the opening of the Willow Therapy Unit. Dr. Kavanagh reflects on her first year in the role, sharing insights into her journey and vision for the future.

Finally, we spotlight innovation in community physiotherapy. Tom Bamford is joined by Kevin Trueman, MSK Business Manager, to explore MSK Community Assessment Days - a new approach that has helped over 600 patients across Norfolk and Waveney in the past year. Tune in to hear how the initiative has evolved and what’s been learned so far.

Chapters

• 0:37 Armed Forces Day
• 22:11 Catch up with Dr. Caroline Kavanagh at Willow Therapy Unit
• 28:19 MSK community assessment centre day

Transcript

Just a quick warning, this episode of The Handover has some wibbly audio at times, but we thought what was being said was just too good to leave out.

Hello, I'm Vicky from the Commons Marketing and Engagement Team, and welcome to The Handover, the podcast for all staff at NCH&C and CCS.

This podcast is created to be an accessible two-way platform for having a conversation with all of our colleagues.

This time on The Handover, we catch up with our group medical director, Dr Caroline Kavanagh, to find out a bit more about her and her role.

We went along to one of our MSK community clinics to talk to staff and patients.

First though, Armed Forces Day is celebrated on the 28th of June, and it's a day to show support for the men and women who make up our Armed Forces community.

In recognition of the launch of the NCH&C Armed Forces Aware Network, our newest staff network, Sarah Buchan, our Group Chief Information Officer, recently hosted a conversation with three staff network members to talk about the important role these networks play in inclusion and helping people meet like-minded people and feel supported.

She was joined by Dom, Sharon and Thomas from networks across CCS and NCH&C.

Hi, everyone, I'm Sarah, the Group Chief Information Officer for NCH&C and CCS.

And on this podcast, we're going to hear about why I feel networks are important and how finding like-minded people are invaluable as a new member of staff or as an existing member of staff.

Welcome, everyone, and thanks for joining us today.

For those of you who don't know me or haven't met me yet, I am Sarah, the Chief Information Officer and an Armed Forces veteran.

Today, we are going to be discussing the vital role of staff networks, dynamic communities within organisations that foster inclusion, support and professional growth.

Whether you're part of one, thinking about joining or wondering why they matter, hopefully we will highlight how these networks empower employees, drive meaningful change and create stronger, more connected workplaces.

But first, let me introduce who's here with me today.

So, I've got Dom, Sharon and Tom.

If you'd like to say a quick introduction.

Hi, I'm Dom Gallea.

I'm a Business Intelligence Manager at NCH&C.

And as of the 4th of May, I will be the Armed Forces Community Awareness Network Chairperson.

I'm also a veteran and have been a member of the network for around a year.

Hi, I'm Sharon and I work for CCST as a Contracts Officer, but I am also the Network Advocate for the Care and Responsibilities Network.

And we've been running for about a year and a half now.

Hello, my name is Thomas.

I'm Dentist with the CCS Dental Service, Special Care Dental Service, and I am a member of the LGBTQ plus IA Network and also of the Long-Term Disability and Long-Term, yeah, the Long-Term Condition and Disability Network.

Thank you all.

So networks, what are networks about?

So for me, after leaving the Navy and moving to Norfolk full time, to be with my husband and children, I was at a bit of a loss.

I spent 18 years living and working in close proximity with like-minded people, and then all of a sudden that just disappeared overnight.

So I needed a new network.

For a new mom, it was easy as there were many other moms around that I could be friends with and network with.

But many of them didn't understand why I had chosen to leave my children at home and disappear for months off around the world.

So I needed to find some like-minded people.

It wasn't until I got back into work that I realized that there were networks out there in the workplace that could support me.

This is where I think it's really great to have that ability to be able to do that.

So we're here today to talk about them.

What I think is really good about networks is that they really create a sense of belonging.

They're a great way to connect with others who share similar experiences or interests.

And I feel that also there's a great way of amplifying voices that may otherwise go unnoticed.

And again, they're a great source of offering peer support from colleagues who understand their challenges.

So hopefully we can talk about the benefits of networks today.

So I'm going to ask my first question to Sharon.

How do you feel that networks create a safe space for open conversations and sharing those diverse perspectives?

I think it's important as a network to just be able to come together as a community with shared understanding.

You might not be traveling the same journey, but you have struggles that are similar and you're juggling the same responsibilities and challenges in some way.

And just being able to know that the people that you're communicating with in that environment understand and will keep confidence, and that you can just open your hearts up and just share what you're going through and have that support from people that you know will be understanding.

Thank you.

And Dom, the same question to yourself.

Yeah, I think it's that point where you go, I'm in a new environment.

We came from a completely different setting.

And you come into this new environment, it's got its own culture, its own ways of doing things.

And you want to ask the question, is this normal or does this seems weird?

And sometimes it is difficult to ask that to someone who hasn't come from an outside perspective.

So you want to go, is this how things are done?

And it's an easier thing to ask if someone's in the network with you.

I think that's really important.

It does create that safe space of not wanting, there's a worry that you're going to look either silly or that you're asking an insulting question.

If you can be in a community that potentially has gone through the same thing, it's nice.

Great.

Thank you.

Tom, I'm going to come to you for this question because you're a member of a network.

So how do you feel the networks contribute to feeling part of a more inclusive workplace culture?

That's a really interesting question, Sarah.

Thank you.

I think that when any of us come into an organization, you come in with a job role and maybe a job title, and you're working hours.

It's really important to remember for all of us that you're not just that job role or that job title, you're a real person with a real life and background, and lots of other things going on.

And we all bring that to work with us.

And what's really great about the CCS Trust is that that's recognized and perhaps life events or worries or medical conditions or stresses that you're going through.

And this is something that I find great with the network, even the positive things that you're going through that you might not otherwise share, the networks are there to just let you have that voice or equally to let you have the the eyes or the ears or the communication to hear other people's stories.

And that great sense of going from feeling perhaps isolated to feeling accepted and then that great sense of belongingness.

Belongingness is a word I didn't know existed.

And it came up at some point in one of the networks.

And that's really the big thing.

It's that sense of belongingness.

Whatever you're experiencing, whatever you're going through, good, bad or ordinary.

Other people have gone through it before.

And equally what you're going through will help other newer people going through similar sorts of things.

Great, thank you.

Sharon, if I can come to you for this next one.

Thinking about employee engagement and involvement, how do the networks impact on your engagement and involvement with the organization and those of the members of the network?

I think in terms of engagement, it's facilitated a lot of conversation of possible struggles that different demographics are going through within the organization and that open communication between those who can facilitate change and those who are communicating the change that needs to happen in order to help everybody, no matter where they are in life, to achieve and to feel fulfilled and to feel safe at work.

So, I think it's great that the networks are there.

We can feed back things that are important up the chain, and there's also that support from the chain down as well, to be able to say to people, you know, you're going through this, this is the support that's available, this is where the trust is there, and on what they have to offer to help you to navigate this time in your life or this phase or whatever you're going through.

And it's just that nice open communication between everybody to know that you are supported, and you are accepted as an individual.

And I think that's important to remember, isn't it?

That we are all individuals, and some of us come from different cultures, different backgrounds, different lived experiences.

And to be able to be in an environment to share that, I think is really crucial to getting that engagement at work as well, and understanding why people think differently, why people do things differently.

And it's not because they're trying to be obstructive, or they don't understand, it's just they have different experiences that they come with.

Dom, if I can come to you.

So how do the networks support activities, or raise awareness that support individuals, particularly those from any underrepresented groups?

I think it's got to be a combined thing, because it's unlikely you're going to be just considering one network.

There's nothing to say that I can't be in the carers network, and the Armed Forces network, or I could be in the Neurodiverse network, the Armed Forces network, and the different backgrounds network, quite happily, and pick one.

I could be in all three.

It doesn't have to be that you are particularly identify with that.

No, you just want to support it.

We're interested in it, especially with the Armed Forces network, where it may be just that your parents or grandparents are involved, and therefore you want to support and be involved.

And Tom, to yourself, how do you feel that the network has raised the awareness and supported individuals?

So with the network, I mean, there's the two-fold thing of the dates and the times for the network meetings go out quite far in advance, because it's really important to give people the opportunity to be able to block the time out of their diaries and be able to attend there.

And management are really supportive of that.

I think perhaps at the start, there might have been that little bit of resistance from some people going, why are you taking time out of working just to sit and chat with people?

That's not work.

And then realizing, ah, the impact of this on individuals, on team, on physical health, on mental health, and not just the impact on us working in the service, but also that big realization that we are here for our service users, for our clients, for our patients, for their families, for their carers.

And when you think about the diversity and the range of experiences of the people that we engage with, then the greater our understanding of ourselves, the greater the understanding of the people we engage with.

Few years back during LGBT History Month, we did a video on the history of the rainbow flag, specifically because, you may remember during COVID, the little rainbow NHS badges came out, and the rainbow symbol for the NHS.

What a lot of people didn't realize is that actually, that use of the rainbow as the NHS symbol came directly from this 1976 San Francisco LGBT Pride flag.

And there's a fascinating history about the story of that.

So understanding where things come from and how they end up where they are is really important.

And speaking of important things, the Supreme Court ruling at the moment for staff, for families, for patients who this affects, that is having a profound impact on many, many people.

And it's hugely important to open up that discussion and to acknowledge that and acknowledge the impact it's having on people.

And that's where the networks, you know, I have a cup of tea here today.

I'm chatting with you on the networks.

These things, it's not just a cup of tea in a chat.

It's really big, important things that impact people's lives and on the patients and the service users we engage with.

And that's where there's been that big shift, I think, in management over the past few years of seeing the, you know, looking after the basic needs, the emotional needs and the specific needs of each individual group and think having these acknowledged makes a happier, healthier, more productive workforce, but also means we can engage with our patients and our service users at a different level.

It brings that authenticity and that sincerity to it because we have that from the networks there.

Yeah, great, thank you.

And Dom, did you want to come in?

Agreed, Tom.

Although these are staff networks and they're labelled staff networks, it's far from just a staff network.

It is about our patients, our, their friends and family.

It's that wider, that wider piece.

If you come across someone and you don't understand them because you're not aware of the community they come from or their background, and you want to ask questions you don't necessarily want to ask them, networks are a really good place to then go and understand those or help the organisation come up with policies and come up with ways of engaging those communities by using the community that already exists within their organisation.

Yeah, exactly.

And it's allowing for managers, it's allowing their staff that time to reflect and think and share.

And then, like you say, they're potentially happier in the workplace and therefore giving better service to our patients, which is what we're all here for.

And Tom, did you want to come back?

Yes, indeed.

Thank you, Dom.

A really practical example of what you've just been talking about there is with the long-term condition and disability network.

A lot of people in our service, particularly when you joined, first of all, won't have been aware about the employment passport.

And perhaps would have thought, oh, this employment passport about reasonable adjustments for whatever long-term condition or disability somebody might have, thinking, oh, well, maybe that's an example that's always used is, oh, maybe that's only for wheelchair ramps, or maybe that's only for these big, huge adaptations.

And no, it's for very important and what might seem like very small things.

Having that guidance to be able to say, here's how to fill it out, here's how to have that conversation with your line manager.

And it's wonderful, we've had people who've had adjustments in the type of keyboard that they use, more ergonomic keyboards, because that means for hand strain, repetitive strain, carpal tunnel, then that's addressing that.

We've had people who had been provided with headsets and dictation software because for them, for various reasons, typing and spelling might be more of a challenge.

So therefore, meeting those needs.

We've had people who might have perhaps frequent hospital appointments and would have always been trying to book these at particular times and working around work, and then working going, actually, let's work together and see how we can accommodate this.

So putting what might seem like those small needs into your employment passport and working on that with the network team and working on that with your line manager, it just makes coming to work less stressful.

It helps retention.

It helps keep people in work.

Plus, it really helps to break down what I find in all the networks is that idea of shame or guilt that a lot of people might have going, I don't really want to admit to work that I have these needs or I have these preferences or whatever it happens to be.

Getting involved in the networks going, actually, that just means you're a person.

That just means you're within the normal range of human experience and everybody else's as well and opening up on that.

Yeah.

Great.

Thanks, Tom.

Sharon, did you want to come in before we move on?

Yeah.

I just want to say, just based on Tom saying that there's that adjustment, passports for long-term conditions and things.

The intersectionality of the networks and how we can utilize different things that others were utilizing.

The adjustment passport is a perfect one.

We adopted it with the carrying responsibilities as well, because there was the realization that you have to juggle a lot, and sometimes you have to drop work as very short notice, because some things come up that was completely out of your control, as a person who has carrying responsibilities and you need to run off.

Myself, I know I wouldn't be able to sustain my job role without my adjustment passport, and knowing that I have flexible working or adjustments with regards to if I need to just all of a sudden disappear and come back an hour later, what is the process on how I handle that so that I'm not taking one extra strain while having to run off for an emergency.

And I think that's been a huge thing, being able to merge and move things over to other areas, because I've had previous employments where I've actually had to leave work and be unemployed because that ability to be flexible wasn't there.

And that has been the great thing about being in the trust that I'm in now is I have managed to have career progression and I've managed to achieve goals and I feel fulfilled because my work life and my personal life aren't in conflict.

I'm able to juggle them all without burnout because that understanding is there and those adjustments are made for me.

Thanks Sharon.

That's really encouraging to hear.

Okay, so thank you very much for that and answering the questions.

I just wondered if we could just very quickly go round again and if you could just give one final kind of one point about your networks, about how networks help and what you would like the listeners to do.

You know, whether it's that's join a network, be supported of colleagues, it'd just be really great to hear some final things from you.

So, Sharon, let's come to you first.

I think from my side, definitely pop into a network, check it out, realize that you have a voice, find your community and your support.

Thank you.

And then Tom?

Come and say hi, pop into a network and say hello.

And please don't feel that you're not getting involved in a committee.

It's not a workload, it's not a commitment.

It's social and it's personable and you can pop in and pop out as much as you want.

And we're here for you and you're here for us.

Thanks.

Thank you, Tom.

And Dom, finally to yourself.

Definitely to echo that, get involved and have a look.

Come and join us.

If you are a veteran, come and have a chat with us.

We're going to be online and come see what we're about.

And come and look at the other networks.

I really can't, the amount of good work that goes on within the networks is amazing.

Thank you.

And thanks to all three of you for coming along today.

That's been great.

So I will certainly be joining the veterans one and I might pop along to some others as well to meet some more staff as I continue my journey as the new CIO across the group.

But thank you very much and have a good day.

A big thank you to Dom, Sharon and Tom for taking the time to talk to me today.

I'd encourage your staff at CCS and NCH&C to find out more about the staff networks available to them.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you to Sarah, Dom, Sharon and Thomas for that really insightful and helpful interview.

There are huge benefits to being a member of any of the staff networks, including as an ally member.

We encourage all staff to pledge to any or all of our staff networks and you can find out more about how you can do this on the intranets at NCH&C and CCS.

Just search staff networks.

Since it opened to patients a couple of months ago, Willow Therapy Unit has treated and discharged over 100 patients.

At the opening event, I got the opportunity to talk to Dr.

Caroline Kavanagh, who is our group medical director, about her first year in her role with us.

I'm here with Caroline Kavanagh, who is the medical director for Cambridge Year Community Services and Norfolk Community Health and Care NHS Trust.

It's a very special day.

We're in the Willow Therapy Unit, which has welcomed its first patients today.

How does that make you feel?

I've been at Willow this morning from when there were no patients here, and it was a corridor with rooms of it to get absolutely bustling now.

The patients, all the staff busying around, it's become a ward in a very short space of time.

I think it's really exciting.

This has been a project that's been ongoing for Norfolk Community Health Care for some time now, and actually at my time at the Norfolk and Norwich, I was sitting on the board for the Willow Unit.

So it's really exciting to see it coming to life now.

It's so big, it's so bright, it's so spacious, and airy, and the opportunities for our patients are fantastic.

It might feel like it's taken a long time to come together, but it's actually not been that long since we were awarded the funding and got the planning at the mission.

Yeah, I think there's been so much work has been done in a very short space of time.

Thankful to Jane Rose, who's done a lot of work on this and has led it, and she's literally lived and breathed the Willow Unit from its conception through Janelle.

But what we've achieved already is amazing.

It was lovely today, even when patients were coming in, new patients, to see a lady coming down with a therapist on her Zimmer.

So her therapy session was starting while other patients were still being moved in, which was wonderful.

Yeah, there's a good feeling here today.

So what did you do before you came here?

So I'm a respiratory pediatrician, that will be my calling.

My main specialty has been children and young people with cystic fibrosis.

I worked at the Norfolk and Norwich for 17 years as a respiratory pediatrician.

We got specialist center status for cystic fibrosis care for Norfolk, which is fantastic.

Then I gradually took different roles across the trust outside pediatrics, and became one of the associate medical directors, responsible officer and have, through the pandemic, I led ED, side ops flow and discharge teams.

And then after that, after the pandemic, then I took on urgent care.

I'm from Belfast, my husband's from Dublin.

My two boys have two sons.

And when we moved here, my youngest was only nine months.

So he has a very Norfolk accent.

And my other son was six when we moved here.

So he's got a sort of Norfolk, Belfast accent.

So when we moved here, a few months, maybe a year after we moved here, the child minder said to us, none of the four of you sound the same.

But we moved to Norfolk, we settled.

I assumed I would go back home because people from Northern Ireland tend to go back home.

Very strong relationship with my parents.

And when the time came that there were roles in Northern Ireland, I didn't want to move back because we were so settled in Norfolk.

I love it here.

That's good to know.

I think the most exciting things for me are shifts from the acute hospitals in the NHS through to the community, because most people live at home, spend time at home with us, a short time in hospitals.

So looking at what we can do within both community trusts, and when we go into this group model, what we can do for patients to keep them well at home.

Yeah.

So that, I think when you work in a big acute provider, your focus is on everything inside the building.

And you have your patients as a pediatrician, you have your children coming to see you in clinic.

And you will think about the distance the families have to travel.

But then you just focus on the clinical aspect of the care.

I think what the difference is for me is now I'm looking at keeping people out of hospital and away from hospital where possible as opposed to bringing them in to see me and bringing them in.

You know, what can we do so that people can have their care closer to their home or in their home?

But we want our families and our patients to have care where they're least inconvenienced and getting the best care.

And that might be in their front room.

It might be having their ulcer dressed on their leg in their own house.

So they don't have to get up in the cold or the wet weather and find transport if they don't drive to come in.

Why wouldn't you want that?

I would want that for my parents.

I know when I talk to them and they suggest things, I'll say, well, what have you thought about this?

And my focus is so community-orientated now.

And the opportunities for us to provide care for our patients is, there is no end to it.

There is no end to change and no end to innovation.

And I think our staff are all really focused in that way, to keep patients at home for as long as they can.

Members of our group board are currently visiting services across NCH&C and CCS, so if you want to request a visit to your team to meet and discuss your service, please email staffengagementatnchc.nhs.uk.

We'll be introducing more ways to get to know each of the group board members over the coming weeks too, so keep an eye out for those.

Over to Tom now, who's talking all things MSK and physiotherapy at our community assessment days.

Okay, so we're talking about an innovation in community physiotherapy, the MSK community assessment days.

Earlier in the year, over 600 patients across Northwark and Waverley benefited from this new approach to care, and I'm here with MSK business manager Kevin Trueman, who played a key role in organizing these events to find out how they worked, what made them special, and what we learned along the way.

Could you just kick off by briefly telling us what the community assessment days were and why they were introduced?

Yeah, so the community assessment days are large patient attendance events that we try to hold outside of the usual hospital settings.

Patients are typically, or for our events, are invited in care boards, so we have between 10 and 25 patients arriving every 30 minutes, and after checking in to the events, are guided through different stations throughout the venue.

The events were introduced using some additional funding provided by NHS England, and that was to impact and reduce waiting times for MSK services.

In terms of planning the events, what was involved logistically, I guess, in organizing these events across all those various locations?

So the planning, yeah, was a bit of a logistical challenge.

So it involved, we had just over three months from securing the funding to implement the CADs by the end of March this year.

And apart from an idea and seeing a CAD run elsewhere in the country and a drawing, everything else had to be sourced from scratch.

So finding venues big enough and suitable enough for the patient, considering accessibility, purchasing the equipment.

So everything else had to be sourced from scratch.

So finding venues big enough and suitable enough for the patient, considering accessibility, purchasing the equipment.

So setting up booths, chairs, desks, the IT equipment, equipment kit to hold the events as well.

Banners, obviously working with different stakeholders with yourself as well in comms to design and print the patient information leaflets, the passports, banners, even the moving of the equipment and storing it.

So setting up the events either the day before or morning or afternoon of the event, and then packing it all away again and taking it back to our storage.

In terms of the patients that were invited to attend, how did you select patients from the waiting list to be invited to one of the events?

So this time around, we tried to co-bought patients.

So for each session, we invite patients with a similar condition.

That was two points really to set the event up, for kind of targeting that specific area, and then also to always ease the flow.

So we knew what patients were coming in, and each wave staff again could keep focusing on that certain area throughout that time period.

I know there was lots of surveying and asking patients how they found the events.

What kind of feedback did you get from those patients who attended?

So the feedback in the main was really positive.

I think we finished on scoring something like 4.5 out of 5.

The majority of the negative comments we seemed to receive was at the start or the first couple of CADs that we held.

And then as we move through the five different events, we took that feedback, almost as learning to try and adapt and improve the experience from the patient as we went along.

Just thinking about some of the particular stories of patients and some of the feedback we received, a comment we received was from a patient relating to how we'd save their mental health and change their whole outlook.

Again, the comment that they quoted is, they have no idea how much we've helped them in such a small space of time.

I remember after the first event, a colleague approached me to say that a patient at the point of checkout was in tears, but it wasn't due to a negative experience, it was happy tears about how amazing they felt that their time there had been.

Amazing.

Obviously, a big piece of this was a collaboration with ECH.

How did that collaboration work in practice with the two organizations coming together for these?

I think in the main, it worked well.

We had a project manager either side working on this.

We had a project group up and running that met quite regularly throughout the week or the week running up and during the CADs.

The main part was just the communication in understanding who's leading on what aspects and areas, raising any issues, kind of problem solving as we went along at times, particularly again, taking the feedback after the first event and the second event and evaluating and adapting as we went.

I know you also had other local organizations and services involved at the events.

What sort of role did those play in making them a success?

So I think particularly the community hub area was one of the major benefits I feel for patients in coming to the CADs.

That was an area of different stalls that were provided, as you say, by community organizations that we invited along.

Some of them were specifically relating to the conditions of patients that we were seeing.

Some of them were more area specific, what community providers can provide in them areas.

Brilliant.

So clearly it's had a big impact on patients.

What would you say from your perspective were the biggest successes of the CADs?

And do you see this model being used again or expanded in the future?

Yeah.

So I think one of the biggest successes was the building relationships with, particularly for ourselves, but I think that the benefit it has to patients is building relationships with other organisations, so particularly those in our community corporate area.

That on the day allowed patients to access services that maybe they didn't even know existed or routinely wouldn't be able to access as quickly coming to a usual clinic appointment.

But I think again from our service point of view in reaching out to these organisations and getting to know them better in how we can provide that information more quickly again in our routine clinics.

So I think that was one of the key successors.

Apart from the obvious of patients accessing services quicker and improving waiting times was one of the benefits from the community assessment days.

Running them in future, I think we definitely are going to consider and we are already looking at that.

So the plan is after summer, we hoping to run an even bigger CAD, but that is venue committing.

The hope is again, we'll invite even more patients and we'll continue using our links to engage with community hub stall holders.

And we also want to look at providing general health checks.

And we're in discussions with PCN leads and GPs of how we could factor that into community assessment days moving forward.

Fantastic.

Well, it sounds like a great example of how collaboration and patient-centered thinking can lead to some real tangible improvements.

So big, big thank you, Kevin, for sharing your insights.

Thank you, Tom.

If I could just say thank you to my team as well.

So at the start of December, when I presented this to the team, there's a lot of questions, I think, a lot of uncertainty and it is something new.

But I think the team really engaged with it, and particularly those that were uncertain at the time, we even managed to get them to engage and we saw they kept coming back and wanting to be involved with more moving forward.

So I think, again, just a massive thank you to them.

Again, without the team, it wouldn't have been such a success as it was.

Fantastic.

Thank you, Kevin.

Thank you.

Well, that was a really packed episode of The Handover.

Thank you so much to everyone who contributed to this episode.

We hope you found what we talked about today interesting, and apologies again that some of the audio was a little wibbly at times.

Further information about everything we've featured on this episode can be found on the web page for this podcast.

Don't forget to send us your ideas and thoughts about The Handover, and if you have an idea for a feature or would like to host a segment, then get in touch.

Join us again soon for The Handover.